Reply To: Female Figures in Religion & Media

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  • Type: SeFi
  • Development: lll-
  • Attitude: Unseelie


I’m laughing here because, after all that apparent ‘conflict’ – we essentially agree on what the problems are, and what needs to happen. 😀  Socionics is really onto something with Conflictors “talking past each other” but – at least in this particular case – I see my own values strongly reflected in your post, and how you see this.

I’m going to react to your post with a mixture of personal and wider thoughts, so I apologize in advance if that is confusing 🙂  feel free to ask if the intent seems unclear.  Part of my ‘realism’ means that I speak from lived experience. The reason I reference myself on public threads, is that I don’t feel it’s right to bring up other people’s specific stories and feelings they have shared with me, or to speak for them.  So that’s why I see myself as a better ‘example’ for me to use; however, I’ll try to be clear on how I see this applying to women at large.

So, here goes. 😀

Yes. This. I appreciate that you have a middle view on this, and seem to just be going  for realism. One of the things that threw me off about your earlier posts was that I felt you were advocating that women need to be more assertive, independent, etc.

Thank you 🙂 Yes, realism is what I was going for. I need to remember to use that word to explain my intent more often. As Se-Te …. I take “realism” for granted and I forget that others don’t necessarily begin and end with this angle.

I am not advocating for women to be more assertive or independent, unless they want to.  I also don’t think that “independence” will be found by pretending we don’t need love and can do everything ourselves. This is, in fact, an oppressive mindset.  And – I am in strong agreement with you that this particular brand has arisen due to women oppressing women, not men oppressing women.

Rather than encouraging women to be ‘powerful warriors’ – I’d sooner advocate for the “average woman” nowadays – to acknowledge that she needs love in her life. People are altogether too afraid to come to terms with this lately, and they refuse to admit simple obvious truths, like “men are physically stronger” – and thus derive the conclusion that women have DIFFERENT strengths, and acting like men will never actually give them power.  It only makes us weaker and more miserable, rather than stronger. 🙁

Which I find unneeded, as I feel that we are at an unprecedented time atm with female empowerment. I don’t think there’s much shortage of encouragement for women to pave their own way. It’s become the trend. The cultural narrative in the past ten years has been highly influenced by third wave feminism to empower women to write their own stories, go their own way, etc. If anything, men are the ones being stripped of their validity and status lately, as women are liberated and media like Wonder Women champions this “female power.”

Third-wave feminism has given rise to a type of approved masculanization of womenhood. But I find that this is even counter to women at large themselves, and which I feel the majority of them don’t really want in the way that it’s portrayed.

Yep.  Keeping men weak doesn’t help anyone – certainly not women!  I’ve complained about this many times, for example, in my own post here – but I don’t expect anyone to read the whole rant 🙂 I’ll throw in some quotes….

  • Men talking to women, men holding the door, men asking you out, being a little determined – so what? Get real people. Masculinity is a REAL force in the world – if you choose not to honor it, you’re living in a fantasy land. Cuckolding entire sub-cultures won’t do you any good; it won’t help you find a balanced relationship. If you want a man who is strong enough to handle you, then stop squandering male expression at every turn.
  • [In religion]  there’s a strong focus on ‘modesty’ for women and not being presented as a sexual object, which of course brings to light the problem that it’s ASSUMED that men will otherwise do bad things, think bad thoughts etc; if we present in a sexy way. This makes a sexy woman, or a woman AT ALL – into a kind of ‘taboo.’ Which makes it exciting, titillating, sinful – to get just an inch closer to her and then go home and whack off.
  • It’s a human instinct to want to admire others’ beauty and be admired. Some people feel this less than others, which is perfectly fine, but for those of us who get a thrill and connect on the basis of beauty and mutual admiration, and who see life as an art; why not indulge it? This kind of thing – for those of us who want to do it – DEMYSTIFIES the appeal of sexiness, of womanliness – and shows how it’s human. It demystifies the sexual undercurrents in conversation, since there’s literally nothing wrong with lusting a little as long as boundaries are set. Healthy desire leads to inspiration and excitement; breaks the monotony. Honoring the desire to be sexy makes for a more honest psyche, where people aren’t ‘cheating and being freaks behind closed doors’ due to all the repression they force themselves into every day.
  • If men are not allowed to aggress, then the average man will devolve into a dependent pussy sucking your titty. That is not fulfilling for any of us.
  • It is fine for ANYONE to assert their will, man or woman alike; and if men are socially not allowed to do this, then women end up feeling undesired or unfulfilled by men who aren’t working, aren’t asserting themselves, etc. As for the men, the suicide rates speak for themselves: they feel cuckolded, uninspired, unwanted, ineffective, creepy. Women, this is not good for you either – especially if you’re hetero – but even if you have sons, friends, brothers, coworkers who are male. An emasculated society is a limp world that can’t get momentum, can’t assert, can’t individuate. Having assertive women won’t make up for it, because these women still have an instinctual desire to find lovers, no matter how loudly they insist they ‘don’t need no man.’ Look deeper. Beyond that, if men in society are squandered due to being told they can’t assert their will, can’t “manspread” and sit comfortably, must squash their balls to avoid female wrath – society will have weak links and will perish.
  • Sexless women and emasculated men are not ideals. It’s fine if individuals express this way, but praising it as some ideal is not the solution to social problems; it is more problematic than human nature itself. People cry, desire, flirt, ask each other out, assert their will, aggress.. your social constructs will not stop them. At best, you will push these acts deeper behind closed doors, where they will come out in extreme ways (rape, cheating, whoring, etc).

This rant ended with a commentary on my own defense against these social messages:

  • In this world of categories, ideals and constructs, I find that exploring my own nature is paramount. These rules and games will never tell me who I am, nor will they contain me; I have always known this. If you explore who you are, and you express who you are and observe what happens, you learn a lot about the world and it’s easier to see the trends for what they are. That is my theory anyway. Subjectivity and individualism do not necessarily begin and end with serving the self. If you know who you are and assert it, the world shows its true colors in your wake.

My sense of the cultural narrative at present is that we don’t need more messages for women to leave men, be independent, be powerful, refuse the maternal/nurturer role, etc. I think “femininity” is in a bit of a crisis right now — as you pointed out, it seems polarized.

I’ll respond to this with some personal experience. To be clear on my intent, my point is to illustrate how I came to terms with my ‘strong personality’ as a woman.  In articulating this journey, I hope to demonstrate that any woman, with any set of needs & talents, can find a reasonable balance that includes ‘honoring herself’ and ‘honoring a man’ in an equal relationship.

“The best women get chased, and the best men chase” – this advice was imparted to me at a young age, and I saw that it was true. Men want to chase someone and women want to be chased. Obvious, right?

The problem is, I have a willful personality.  I’m not any kind of ‘warrior’ or physical beast, but I know what I want, and I figure out how to get it. In all other areas of my life, I was assertive and driven; but where men were concerned, I was afraid of rejection.  I knew exactly who I wanted, but I needed to make them come after me.

Hot guys chased me all the time, but I wanted exactly who I wanted, and couldn’t settle for less.  I didn’t want to demean my own worth as a woman by chasing my crushes outright, yet I was hopelessly obsessed.  So I would lure them to chase me while feeling tortured over any sign of rejection, and essentially destroy myself over each one for years.  This could have been resolved by simply asking them out and getting a direct answer, but I was terrified that would turn them off and I’d ruin my chance.

I fantasized about being a man so I could be more direct and woo my crushes through romantic acts.  I wanted to exhibit chivalry and honor, and get down on my knees and serenade the beautiful boys who made my heart sing.  I researched transgenderism, but I didn’t have body dysphoria and didn’t want to condemn myself to being a short guy with a high-pitched voice and female organs.  The only place I could live out my fantasy relationships was in fiction. What a coincidence that I started writing books at age 11. 🙂

Subtlety and coyness did not suit me, and the attempt to fit that role made me less appealing. I came to terms with this in my late 20s and began taking direct initiative when needed. Since I’m attracted to shy men, this dynamic worked out well, and I finally had good relationships.

Still, this does not mean that I want to be “in charge.” I need a guy who holds his own, who defends women, and who is strong and firm in his own mind, but who finds my willfulness sexy. It’s an absolute necessity because otherwise I’d spend my whole life pretending I’m someone else, and that is not sexy or honest. But I do not want someone that backs out of a fight, expects me to carry all the weight, or allows me to dominate him. He needs to hold his own in an argument, a decision, a fight. He needs to be a man.

In short, I need to be with someone I respect. How could I respect someone if I completely dominate him?

I did not have what it took to attract the right man when I was ‘waiting for them to make a move’ and playing games. I needed to be real about who I am, in order to attract someone equally real.  And now that I found my soulmate in @ivory , I am driven to nurture and worship him.  It turns me on that I cannot dominate him intellectually, emotionally or physically, and I trust that nobody can. 😉

I feel like a lot of these messages about ‘men and women’ miss these human, grey areas; where a woman doesn’t need to fit the ‘submissive’ mold to the T, yet there is still room to express her will in an honest, loving relationship; without being a dominant warrior who “doesn’t need a man.”

We all need to figure out what type of balance we are personally comfortable with. And there are as many shades of men as there are women; so there is always someone who fits with any woman who discovers who she is and expresses it with an open heart.

And I think women need to debate with other women about it, and about what they want, rather than them going after men. I heard Peterson say that highly independent lawyer/business women tend to feel hollow into their 30’s when the realize they’ve made their career their life. And a lot of these women go that route because the cultural narrative is pro-women’s-power.

Not enough emphasis is given to the idea that a women might find great happiness under the embrace of a loving husband who she can lean on, but who doesn’t oppress her. I think a phobia has developed in some women that men are oppressors, and so they refuse the idea of leaning on a man, by equating it with subjugation.

Oh gosh yes. Yes yes yes. I was never under the delusion that I’d be fulfilled by being a ‘career woman,’ even when I had a music career in my teens.  And I certainly was not happy until I learned how to deal with real relationships.  My heart aches for these people 🙁

Women need to talk to each other for sure. At this point , many women are oppressing each other and blaming men for it. 🙁  We need to let men talk about how to be men, and allow women to talk about how to be women; and for F**Ks sake, respect each other’s decisions. I’m so sick of men being drowned out by the same women that complain they are pussies! What the hell can a man possibly do right in such a scenario?   Do women actually GET OFF on that???  If so, they must feel really weak and powerless, which is just heartbreaking.

I’m going to think about the how-to questions and come back and respond to them in another post. Those are such great questions, I want to treat them with the respect they deserve.

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