Reply To: Harry Potter's Fictional Type

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Animal
Participant
  • Type: SeFi
  • Development: lll-
  • Attitude: Unseelie

@bera

I think Fe pretty much incorporates Jesus Christ’s story of death and resurrection.

And I am deeply sorry for having to say this but as an Fi – Te user, this story does not resonate with me at all and I find it ABSURD, nonsensical. It is a fundamental part of Christianity…a fundamental part that makes no sense at all. Couldn’t God just make a logistical change to accommodate sinners? To integrate sin, a thing he himself created if he created everything??? Wouldn’t that be the sane thing to do instead of sacrificing your own son who is also you by letting him die on a cross??

I HATE it and hate that I have to hear it so often as a moral example of how things should be, of how I should be !!! It is illogical, unnatural and unaligned to my values. To me it is deeply unfair and irrational to suffer for the idea of redemption or to die to become someone new after facing a horrible trial. Why would you do that?? You already ARE everything you need to be. Yeah, people have painful experiences and learn from them, I agree with that and I also agree that challenges can help you define better who you are and what you want but anything more than this looks to me like…unnecessary drama with a very twisted agenda.

I completely agree with you and I’ve said many of the same things about why Original Sin doesn’t resonate with me. To quote a few of my own posts:

Flaws

Spoiler:

I don’t think of people as having flaws. I think of every quality a person has as potential.

Let’s suppose you start with being a very receptive person. Your worst potential then is to lose your own voice completely; whereas a possible best potential is to channel and navigate the energies of the world.

Any quality someone has, has potential to be their best or worst.

I’ve always said, my best AND worst quality is my passion. My passion can go to the realm of manic obsession, singularity of focus at the expense of all else.. or it can get channeled in a way that inspires others.

I’m a vampire at my worst and a vessel at my best.
Is that a flaw? No. Is it an asset? No.
It’s whatever I make it.

But trying to be something else..to embody something that isnt naturally “me” … is.. not going to work.

I think it’s best to discover what makes you “you” and then channel it.
And in channeling it, there will be mistakes, there will be glory, there will be pain…
but as long as there’s growth, it is worth it. Nothing worth having comes easy. Nothing worth DOING or BEING comes easy.

I have always been very hyper aware of whats wrong with me as in, what other people can’t accept or can’t love; but I also feel like I’d be fine if only I was on my home planet.

But, I’m not.. so the best I can do is bring memories of my home planet to Earth, to help others discover themselves, to communicate, to give them ..whatever it gives them. Hope, escape, introspection…whatever.

Not everyone will care or notice. But I can only share my own truth.
What more can anyone do?

When people start thinking in terms of “flaws” vs. “assets,” what they’re really doing is plugging in to what others want or expect them to be.

When they think of themselves as “potential” or “energy” ….
then perhaps there’s a chance of learning what to do with that energy.

“Flaws” is a myth that society has drilled into us.
Something is only a flaw if you let it destroy you.

I’ve also written similar rants about Original Sin. Why would God create us this way and then tell us to be another way in order to be perfect?

I actually think Christianity built its own Easter traditions on the older spring rites and gave them the Fe messianic interpretation too. From my SeFi point of view, Christianity tainted something that was pure and beautiful but from a Je lead perspective most probably Christianity brought order into chaos and gave those rites meaning and weight.

Exactly. The way we are, is pure and beautiful. However I will emphasize, as I said in my last post, that part of “who we really are” involves a trajectory. This means, there is an innate need to improve and “rebirth” throughout our timeline. Which brings me to your other point:

Now…about Se’s death and rebirth…I think the Eleusinian Mysteries are more representative of that. Death and rebirth seen in the context of fecundity and regeneration and celebrated in rites of spring. This is much better aligned with my own life philosophy, if I can claim to have a life philosophy to start with.   Our soul is always the same but we go through seasons. There is a time of silence and cold, a time when the soul rests and when clarity is gained. And a time of fecundity and creativity, a time for renewal and for flourishing. And I think this is a beautiful thing, that should be celebrated with wine, mirth, sex and joy ! Yeah, just cover everything in flowers, bring some harps, dance away all night long and bring praise to Mother Nature for blessing us to be here and to be alive ! I totally resonate with that and there is a death and resurrection idea in it too, but with a totally different interpretation and meaning.

This is basically what I was getting at in my posts. Harry Potter went through a season when he became a leader. He believed in something, and he had to put himself through trial by fire, in order to stand for what he believed. Once the task was done, he continued doing what he wants to do and fighting for what he believes, rather than sacrificing himself as a leader for some big group.

So I don’t see it as a Fe myth, I think.  I see it as more of a myth like the one you just posted, where his soul went through its very natural and necessary ‘seasons.’  There is a self improvement factor here, as I mentioned in my previous post:

Spoiler:
Basically this is what I fundamentally disagree with. Is it really natural to just sit on your hands and allow others to wipe your ass?  Maybe it’s my bias, but I don’t have much interest in people who have no will to become something more. It brings the image of a 45 year old man sucking a mommy’s tit. It’s not “natural” to be a middle aged infant – and people are only like that because of depression and serious personal problems.  It is much more natural to want to improve and have agency, whatever that means to each person.  Je is a path toward agency in the world ‘out there,’ but Ji types for example can have a lot of agency in coming up with complex internal structures.  A Je type without Ji will get shit done, but overlook moral integrity, consistency and meaning. They can ‘do’ but, for what?  Thus, it’s just as natural for them to want to change to something ‘more than their natural self,’ as it is for any other type to want to incorporate other functions so they can become a full person.

Perhaps a 50 year old infant Je-lead is a tyrant bossing people around for no reason; perhaps a 50 year old infant Ji-lead is a starving ‘artist’ whose mom pays his bills.. perhaps Einstein could not remember to wear pants when he left his apartment, though he still did amazing things. 50 year old infants come in many forms, and it is natural to want to be a child forever, but it is also natural to realize this lifestyle is empty and unfulfilling, and thus experience a strong urge to get over yourself and grow up.

And this, perhaps, is the merit in Jung’s argument that the hero narrative is universal. Because it is universal for everyone to feel this conflict between being a child and growing up. There are rites of passage in many cultures, growing pains; this truly is universal.

If it seems to you that it’s ‘unnatural’ for some people to feel drawn to overcome their own weaknesses in order to be something more, unless they are Fe, then maybe Fe is not being conceptualized properly?  Because I cannot conceive of any universe in which one type has a monopoly on self-improvement.  Villains are often the tyrants & tricksters that embody one function fully, like a 50 year old infant, whereas heroes are the ones that face their shadow and incorporate something more.

 

I fundamentally disagree that any form of self-improvement or personal heroism is a Fe myth. Danaerys’s myth, as @faerie mentioned; is one of becoming.  Like Christ. Sacrificing herself for the All, as an ultimate way of fulfilling a destiny.  Harry Potter’s myth is one of rising to the task so he could stay true to his own values; allowing his soul to go through the necessary ‘seasons’ so he could fulfill the pragmatic necessities (Te) for the tasks that were required to protect his sense of inner values & friendships (Fi). Afterwards, he returned to his natural state, with more experience and wisdom behind him – and took on a job as an auror-hunter (Se).


@auburn
argued that the story itself is Fe whereas the character might not be. It’s a fair argument, but then he went on to claim that Hero stories, and attraction to them, are not universal. So I’d wonder where he stands regarding my last post, about how it’s natural for people to undergo “rites of passage,” and to have conflicts about it; and to rise to the challenges that come up, by challenging themselves (whether that means developing more functions or patching up weaknesses in other ways).  Nobody’s life is free of challenge: the question is, what do you do about it? That is what makes you “you.” But absolutely everyone must push themselves in some way or other, to rise to challenges.

This means there must be other types of ‘rites of passage’ that aren’t Fe-ish in nature. To me, this would include the Harry Potter story, I think.  Or at least, the specific character’s trajectory.  I might say it’s a story of “Good triumphing over Evil” which might make it Fe, but the story is, afterall, entitled “Harry Potter.” So really, you’re lining HIM up with a myth, if you’re lining the story up with a myth, since the story is titled by his name.

And his myth seems closer to what Bera said, the seasons of the soul. And what I said; rites of passage.  And what Fae said, not ‘becoming something’ – but staying true to himself.  It is perfectly natural, true to yourself, and honest; to be a boy, and then go through rites of passage to become a man.  Fe does not have any monopoly on this.

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