Reply To: Upcoming Changes to Fi/Ti, and F Attitudes

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Bera
Moderator
  • Type: SeFi
  • Development: ll--
  • Attitude: Seelie

@Animal – exactly, I also relate to a lot of the Fe description.

My problem is the following :


@Auburn
you say :

For Fe, purpose/value is found in object-to-object relations. I’m just taking this at a cosmic scale above, and showing how it manifests in myself philosophically. But a much more plain Jane Fe value can arise from communal participation for example. A person might find meaning within the interaction of objects (people) together around her vicinity, and knowing that her role in that context is what gives that meaning. Knowing you’re a part of a biotic system bigger than oneself, is what gives meaning in Fe. But the key note here is:

Fe/Ti implicit belief: value is not something I can self-decide, even if I wanted to.

The thing is value IS indeed not something one can self decide. Values – as in “principles or standards of behavior” can not be self determined, they are being built since we are little by input from others – our parents, siblings, teachers, classmates… I can’t think of any value I have that I came up with completely on my own. I did not simply look at a classmates’ colored pencils and thought stealing is wrong. I learned from my parents, who learned from their parents and so on that stealing is wrong. Everyone saying stealing is wrong will automatically quote the Bible or the religious text they believe in or that is most appropriate from a cultural point of view. It seems to me that most of our current values are directly adopted from those close to us and constantly shaped by society and cultural trends.

So, there is more that needs to be dug out here, because despite having some tendencies for idiosyncrasies, Fi-Te users do have a value system that is also pretty heavily influenced by society.

The same is true of situations like this example you gave –  “wanting to measure up to one’s father.”

I can not measure up to my father, in all honesty, he is very hard to measure up to. But I do feel a duty to maintain a good image in the eyes of my parents and this is more important to me than living my own dreams, which are not even very clear to me. At the very least, I am trying to learn more about my interests while keeping an image my parents would not be ashamed of. And I also think our output and our influence on other people’s lives is basically our purpose.

So, how do we properly discern between issues which are pretty much covered by Enneagram image types and Fe-Ti? Could someone be a 2 or 3 who self determines her values?

This becomes even trickier if we say we do not determine our value system by pinging our emotional register because then…if we don’t adopt values from the outside, nor do we determine them by pinging our emotional register for each one (emotional register which would anyway be attuned corresponding at least in part with the societal general views) – I can’t see how we would be determining those values.

Another issue is how much perception functions play into this, as, typically, as Saf mentioned above, conductors do tend to look at things from a rather global or general perspective, which can play into adopting a role which impacts more people in a more direct way…which in itself might come into conflict with self deciding values even more. To give an example, as a politician or as a priest, you need a high degree of inter-subjectivity with large groups of people. Or else they will not relate to what you are telling them, while your purpose is to get them to relate and to take significant changes towards your agenda. Then the question is how would a TeNi do this differently from an FeNi ? As both may very well want to live up to their family values and to their people’s values.

I think this is all a problem of wording, but it should be addressed anyway.

One of the issues here is the idea of self determining values might appeal more to Fi’s perspective than Te’s. From Te’s perspective your output (and implicitly your influence on others) is that which is most valuable and you are aiming at measuring up to some general standards when evaluating that output. I think you might say those standards are rather abiotic but they are still seen as “general” or “objective“, for lack of better words. A value could be “working hard” and you might determine this means working for 9 hours or submitting a certain number of products or services of a specific quality. And then maybe this looks like “self determination” but you determine those standards by comparing your work to the industry you are in or to some pre – existing rules. The standards might lack much warmth (let’s all remember our favorite Te quote), but they are not determined by personal preference either. If the standard is make 6 green pillows with white polka dots per day, at the standards of health and safety applicable to pillow industry – these standards are not determined by preference, but by the applicable norms of health and safety and by numbers you came up with when checking the market and your competition. Which is all pretty abiotic, but it’s not really self determined, at least according to my understanding of self determination. I guess this example might not be seen by everyone as a manifestation of a value, but I’d say it still is based on values like efficiency, reliability, seriousness, care towards your clients’ well being and for your general image. You might be building a cute pillow business, which is your dream, but the part of expressing yourself will be only one side of the coin. (and even that mixed up with a lot of inspiration taken from other sources, your personal style being maybe observable as a small contribution to the end product). Still – good work or efficiency or punctuality or health/environment protection or work safety are all measurable objectively.

Maybe I am actually not disagreeing with you ! I just mean Te has values and Te values are not really self determined or independent of outside norms.

It’s also hard to properly discern how much of this is purely Te or Fi.  I am sure one could say “but the values are determined by Fi and only implemented by Te.” I personally don’t agree with this view, but some of these values look like a combination of Fi and Te. Especially “health/environment protection”. But I mean…there are standards to them !! Objective standards !! (and in the end many of these standards were also established by society, which makes the whole discussion a little tricky for me at least).

  • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Bera.

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