Reply To: What counts as evidence?

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Bera
Moderator
  • Type: SeFi
  • Development: ll--
  • Attitude: Seelie

There are so many points to be addressed here. I will start with the one that concerns typing. Auburn explained this very well but I would like to add something.


@Cedar
– you said :

We are looking at a very narrow window of behavior that may not be consistent with the person’s ongoing behavior. One clip or video may be an accurate representation of a person as a whole, or just a snapshot of who/how they were in a moment with unknown circumstances.

This seems to be true when you haven’t yet watched many videos of the same people, made in different circumstances. I used to believe this too. But in fact it is not like this. We come from a place of inherent belief in the complexity of the human psyche and of its manifestations. And from a conviction that the mind has no limits in its power and versatility. This is why we naturally conclude that a person can be different in different situations and that the vultology can also dramatically change depending on the situation.

But if we look at the data given, a somewhat different picture emerges. Yes, we are very complex beings, capable of creating a high diversity of thoughts, ideas and emotions. But each person has a natural repertoire of signals he consistently shows over time. If you take 5 videos of the same person, made on different occasions around the same period (!), you see the same signals, with very small differences here and there. Hence when trying to type the same person based on one video and then trying to type the same person based on another one, we tend to see the exact same signals in both videos ! I can say this is certainly true, as I have tried it myself several times. There usually is a difference of 2-3 signals at most that appears between the videos, that is indeed determined by circumstance. So maybe in an extremely serious talk a Pe lead would not show as many perk ups as in a casual fun talk. But still the Pe lead will have alert eyes and ongoing movements. Still the Pe lead will have casual hands in each video you watch and will at most manage to show some exact moves with a significant struggle, having subordinate judgement. A Pe lead will never project like a Je lead – not even when explaining a theory to a big group of people. His hands will never have those hits. His head moves will never emphasize his points in the particular Je fashion. No matter the situation, no matter how accustomed he is with talking in front of a crowd.  Je development will greatly enhance his general capacity of coordinating his moves in an exacting way and will provide the ability to maintain a rigid position, will improve his articulation and will give a more concentrated and directed energy, for sure, but he will never do the specific Je lead moves and will never maintain the specific Je lead posture for a significant period of time. Because his repertoire of signals is that of a Pe lead, Je lead repertoire of moves is not in the… script. 🙂

Now I will share a more personal experience but only with the purpose of illustrating this issue. I have tried a couple of times to role play a gamma conductor and I discovered it is very hard to change your vultology even for a short time span, despite the change being to another type within your own quadra ! Some problems that come up when trying to role play a gamma conductor from the baseline of SeFi II–, that I encountered, are :

  • it is difficult to stop showing bodily presence, but this is a key component of being a conductor. A conductor does not constantly playfully touch her hair and face or play with accessories. She might at times but she will not constantly do this, as fidgeting is a sign of insecurity. Weakness. And lack of decisiveness. So, when role playing a Te or Ni lead, I realized a key factor is to constantly be aware of my natural tendency to show bodily awareness and to exert an effort in not doing it. The effort is major and it can be exhausting to keep up with it.
  • Je rigidity is different from Ji rigidity, because it also contains the element of forwardness. Shoulders must be rigid and you must face your opponent from that particular place. This creates muscle tension a PeFi II– is not accustomed with and after a high Te modulation round I felt discomfort in some back and shoulder muscles. The jaws also become more tense with Te modulation and if you pay attention to the sensations, you can feel that area has become tense and there will be some new sensations when you do the release and turn back to your everyday self.
  • Ni zone outs with the unblinking stare are not something SeFi II– eyes are used to do. When I tried to do them, my eyes started itching. This is nothing compared to the Ni posture though…
  • regarding the Ni posture – Grounded Inertia – I have to say I did not know how to even attempt to imitate it. Because it is correlated to being sure of your worldview, no doubt in your mind, this is what the world is. It is a security inside your body that is very hard to modulate. Here I faced emotional reactions – I felt anxiety when trying to do it. There is a fear of adopting a secure posture, because as Pe lead, your truth is that there might be no correct, fully fleshed out worldview…at all. You see what you see. You perceive what you perceive. You can not ground yourself in any particular system of thought or philosophy because what if it is wrong. Grounded Inertia is hard to tackle, you are on moving sands and heaviness feels like sinking. So, trying to adopt this posture can cause anxiety, though with some exercise the underlying security starts to come to the surface.

 

I know this is highly personal, but you can try to do it yourself. For example watch some TeSi’s and try to act exactly like a TeSi would and you will for sure also encounter difficulties on the way. Physical and emotional ones. You will be able to look more like a TeSi than the usual, but it will take effort and still an exercised eye will see that you are an FiNe, not a TeSi. By the way, this is just an example, anyone doing this will encounter these little blocks. Because they are there, they are in our minds and consequently also in our bodies.

So, we all have a certain repertoire of signals, that consistently show in videos, in different combinations (that are patterned too). Of course, there can be mistakes in typing ! But the person still actually shows the same signals, only we interpreted them in a wrong way. The person’s eyes are still toggling on their own rhythm…their own toggles pattern. But you may wrongly believe they are innocent looking when in fact they are sharp. Or you may believe the toggles are pointed when in fact they are brush stroke moves. The person still has the same toggles though, and if you compare the videos, the moves are the exact same in each video, the quality of the eyes is the exact same, if the person is a fixed gazer, he will be a fixed gazer in all the videos, he will never be a toggler, if the person is a toggler, he will be a toggler in any video made.

There is no error in this, no break in the system, everyone consistently shows the same signals and this can be tested as many times as we’d like, on anyone, we can make reports separately, we will all see the same signals, the only differences may be in how we interpret them !

But – functions can be developed in time and then the vultology changes. So if someone is now IIII, his vultology will be very different from the moment when he was I—. But – and this is very important – even IIII have their own repertoire of signals that tends to show in all of their videos. If you can confidently use a conscious function, you will tend to confidently use it…a lot. 🙂

Another thing I would like to add here is about what Auburn said regarding Fe leads :

Maybe an Fe-lead is into economics and business (listed under Te behaviorism), but is doing so because of paternal pressure for a good, successful life in a financially stable career. For him honor and rapport (Fe) are motivating this behavior at root.

Yes, people can do very similar things for very different reasons. And then they will also do their jobs with a certain coloring of their type. I am currently reading (listening to the audiobook actually) – Letters from an Astrophysicist. And here is a quote that caught my…ears 🙂

Now think of a professor who faces you from the front of the room; who makes eye contact with the audience; who has invested time and energy thinking about how you think; who pays attention to your attention span; who is aware of what words you know and what words or concepts confuse you; who knows the demographics of the audience—age, gender, nationality, ethnicity, political leanings, cultural leanings, propensity to laugh, to cry; who carries some pop-culture fluency, for easy reference and analogy, but only when teaching the subject can be assisted by such references. That person is not lecturing to you. That person has opened conduits tailored to that audience in that moment, and at that time. That’s communicating.

― Neil deGrasse Tyson, Letters from an Astrophysicist

This is an Fe view on teaching coming from an astrophysicist. 🙂 So…it is hard to even show the evidence with statistics because a simple information like the person’s job/career/vocation is not always enough for the type connection to be actually made. Here the very first assumption would be the Universe is a system, astrophysics is a science, this person should be a Te lead if you think about his profession, no? But if you read what he is saying and compare it to the Fe profile, you can see it’s all here – Social Economy, the Human Condition, Mentorship and Coaching. The subject of study matters less than the approach to it. (which by the way you can see above in my approach to what you said – which is based pretty much on Heightened Focus, Flow and Improvisation :))) and Persistence Effect. That I use to make a point about typology. Because actually any approach can be useful in any given field, it’s just that some are better suited for certain fields, which might determine more people of certain types to work in those fields. )

  • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
  • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.

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