Reply To: Se Realism, Ne Surrealism & Identity

Home Page Forums Cognitive Functions Se Realism, Ne Surrealism & Identity Reply To: Se Realism, Ne Surrealism & Identity

Animal
Participant
  • Type: SeFi
  • Development: lll-
  • Attitude: Unseelie

@alerith

^ oh I’m so sorry I misinterpreted you in this way! >.< Perhaps, would you describe your stories more as a place where you can process what lays on your heart about real life and its tragedies?.. I know for me Unisis was a characterization of my subconscious/internal world, and I initially developed relationship with my Animus and kind of ‘played out’ my guiding narratives through the story. Is this anything like your experience with Erosia?

Oh don’t worry! I don’t think you drastically misinterpreted me by any means. You always get me. 🙂  It was just the use of the word ‘escapism’ got my motor running because I’ve been sick and busy, and storing up all these ideas about Se vs Ne, but it’s still a process for me, trying to understand the differences. So your post was a jumping off point for those ideas.

What you just said here is exactly how I experience it, yes. Animus and all.  😀

Yeah I still struggle with awareness of my limits like.. A LOT   This is actually one of the topics I’ve discussed with my boyfriend, our Fe/Ne double-extroverted outward focus on others, our relevance to humanity and our ideal of what we want to do/be gets us into the continual pickle of biting off more than we can chew!

Makes sense. Perhaps this is related to Ne vs. Se, then.  My father is Ni lead 7, but he doesn’t do this. He’s pretty focused on his one path and not overwhelmed with possibility – but his thoughts are expansive, as he takes information in that covers the ‘whole world.’  So it’s not 7 or your 7 wing alone.

But the drive to “become better” and push our limits (as well as that 693 shape-shifty adaptation – I do believe he’s the same etype as I am) motivates us to expand our capacity/develop those extroverted functions to greater degrees, rather than dropping any of what we’ve got going on ;p

Hehe. Not surprised about his type! We’ve found 369 tritype is pretty common for Ti leads. :O And also, some minor alterations like 539, etc. (Not suggesting it’s limited to this, however. We don’t know yet.)

That makes a lot of sense about the shape shifty and expanding your capacity. :O Wow, it sounds like a lot to me, but I’m seriously impressed that you manage to do that. I would literally lose my mind, but Ne is more elastic in this way. (Or maybe it also has to do with my tritype, which is strong on its own separate identity and vision, but not very adaptive.)

I think what you may be picking up on with me is that I’ve let go of my 714 perfectionist Shadow over time. This is equivalent with my recovery from depression. It took many years, but I shifted mindset from comparing reality to projected ideals – Peterson calls this the experience of the “Unbearable Present” – to embracing reality for what it is and surrendering to the fact of the matter. I don’t feel reality needs to be anything anymore, and actually find a deep beauty in the impermanence and rawness of *what is*. I think my heart valued certain narratives and contrived ideals more than truth before.. but now I feel that Truth really is the highest value to me at a core emotional level.. I suppose this can be summed up as my development of equanimity; there is a profound ground of peace in just bein’ ok with things as they are! ^__^

That is beautiful <3

Hm, I’m trying to think how the unbearable present might apply to me. I have this over-autonomous mindset where I am wired to feel like my destiny is in my hands and it’s all up to me to forge myself out of the fire. Illness should have challenged this, and it did in some ways — in the sense that it gave me much more direct empathy for those who felt powerless. I was always protective of such people in my life, not hateful toward them, but after this I really felt, on an emotional level, why they might feel that way. Trauma gave me insight to that. However, it only strengthened my resolve to forge myself from the destruction; to redefine my concept of what I am — not merely a singer, but a vessel through which passion emerges. This encompasses singer, but still keeps my goals and identity very specific. (The fun part about that is I could take that same archetype in my Animus in Erosia, and he can be a magic-trained martial artist channeling his own passion as it connects to the will of God, and it’s no different from what I’m doing in essence. He doesn’t need to be ‘a singer’ either, provided he’s a vessel through which passion emerges.)

Being ok with things as they are is a beautiful 6-9 integration, CT aside. My integration is toward the high side of 1 perfectionism, serenity and integrity, not so much about being ok with things, but having the serenity and wisdom to know the difference between what’s in my control and what isn’t… etc.

bah! Your words are fine my dear! <3 Really, I’m always struck by how well you explain yourself. I envy how capable you are of generating content too! As I mentioned in another post I made last night, writing isn’t the easiest thing for me, especially extensive explication..

Purr *blush* . I wish I generated less content but more exacting. 🙁 But I do really really appreciate that, it means the world. I’ve worked so damn hard on it…. <3 Btw, I’ll give you my book draft soon. It got delayed due to illness.

and lol I’ve got a lotta 9 ;p if you want me to be scathing you’ll hafta try to goad me into it XD

Lol. Perhaps it’s wise to stay on your good side then. 😉 😉 😀

But anywayz! You seem to have several main points in your post, and I agree very much with most of them! You’re quite right about the misleading and empty characters in enneagram – this is similar to what happened with the MBTI types as they were derived from Jung’s initial work. (hmm, I wonder if Myers and Briggs were Ne users   have we typed them?) From what you wrote above about Gurdjieff’s thoughts, they really parallel Jung’s analytical psychology, and I resonate very much with his and your sentiment: “Escaping the machine means operating with the awareness of fixation and its control over the psyche.”

I’m glad you didn’t think I was totally off base. The differences in how escapism is handled, are hard to get into words – but I think @Bera touched on a good distinction. I do wonder what’s up with the enneagram stuff. There’s one NeFi ( @vive) who I knew right away would catch on to the enneagram stuff well, and so far he has. And you have been really good at it too, once we went over a few basics! But overall I’ve found more resistance or “unable to get it/ see its value” in Ne people rather than Ti. Some who don’t resist and who become teachers kind of distort it to meaninglessness.   I’m curious about Meyers & Briggs now too…this is a whole interesting project.

We cannot escape our human nature, nor the particulars of our ct, etype, etc. which are innate or otherwise permanent aspects of our personalities. Awareness and mindful, intelligent decision on how to interface the machinery of the self with the fact of reality is the way out of a fixative loop (i.e. neurotic tendency). “You own it or it owns you” is a very apt adage methinks!

So so so true <3 I resonate with it so well also.

I love this kind of story telling as well! Characters who have all the aspects of a real human being are engaging, they have depth.. One dimensional characters – like the pure ‘good’ and ‘evil’ you mention – ultimately they are convenient for portraying the struggle we all face in dealing with the archetypal polarities. But they aren’t really interesting beyond their role in communicating an archetypal aspect and moral of the story – these characters have short lifespans, and become boring when there’s more than one sequel lol XD This is funny in light of the fact that they embody timeless human themes, but then one cannot build a relationship with a theme in the multi-dimensional way one does with a whole human!

So incredibly well phrased. “The value of one dimensional characters is in portraying the archetypal polarities.’ YES! This is why I enjoy that work, but could never really see myself as part of that world or resonate with the characters with the depth that I do in GOT. Do you think a lot of Ne authors might get past this and write deep multifaceted characters?  I bet you would.

And I feel this is an apt time to mention 😛 some Se users can be shallow too. I think this goes without saying. But the major famous big shot authors, Rowling and Tolkien – are BRILLIANT, truly – and they represent ‘the best of the Delta crop’ in fantasy writing. Although maybe there’s another genre where character development happens differently. (Maybe Si causes the Delta writers to stick to tradition in having fantasy characters be more archetypal?)  Maybe it’s also unfair to say Ne when I’m referring to two Deltas. Although I see similar reduction in , say, Russ Hudson  – but his “types” are purely cartoonish, and this is very different from writing fiction. I find Auburn’s short stories about types and archetypes amazing, and they don’t pretend to be another genre. They are what they are and he does it incredibly well, with symbolism etc.  So maybe this is where Alphas excel, but I’d be curious if any have crossed over to the “deep individual characters” – that you know of.  I’d imagine it’s less likely. As long as I live I could not dream of writing such concise, symbolic short stories like Auburn did; and I’m no slouch. I think GOT is far ahead of me, and makes me ask myself, why do I bother writing? – but I can also see my own POTENTIAL in it.

I can’t speak for other Ne users, but I relate to *both* these manifestations actually! The type of truth I value most is the obscure ‘dark’ side of humanity. I revel not only in the exposure of this truth and deep awareness of it, but in acceptance and integration of it into life and personal experience. You could say I’m an advocate for the Shadow, an embodiment of it really, and I want to reconcile the fractured aspect of humanity back into wholeness in order to initiate the healing we collectively so desperately need.. This is why Nietzsche’s quote resonates so deeply with me: “Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse..” All that which is socially labelled as ‘ugly’ by society, that is what I want to embrace most and prove its rightness and beauty to the world <3

I dunno if that makes sense? Is this an example of what you were referring to with Ne, or do you relate to what I’m describing as well?

Oh I completely relate too. This must be extraneous to type, and it’s why we are from the same planet or sister planets (Unisis and Erosia) <3 <3

To answer your question about Alice, actually I don’t really like that story much anymore! ;p When I was a child though, my environment was so toxic that I preoccupied myself with thoughts of a more ideal world, and related with Alice in that she ran away into another realm that was more pleasant and interesting than daily life and banal society..

Makes sense. I guess in this sense, you could classify my own delving into Les Mis, Phantom, Miss Saigon etc – as getting ‘beyond’ the banal boring routines and exploring something more intense. For type 4, intense emotion and its expression IS the addiction or escape – you could say they’re gluttons for emotional intensity. So maybe it’s not Ne and Se here, but just my enneagram causing me to choose such dark subject matter – but our need to get beyond the mundane was similar.


@Bera

But maybe we prefer to escape to places where we can have  intense experience going on in the here and now. Playing a game is like this.

Makes sense.

Dreamworld extended – so, this is different from escapism. Life becomes part of dreamworld and every event in real life can be connected to events in dreams, symbolic content I have recently seen or thought about or someone else has mentioned, tarot cards I or other people drew, planet transits, Moon phases, events in other people’s lives, other people’s dreams…it never stops. There are associations linked to new associations linked to new associations. I hate to use the word web but it looks like a web. I can not prove this is not all created by myself. I don’t know if it’s created or perceived. It has a surrealistic vibe, but it doesn’t happen outside of real life, it’s a merging of reality and fantasy. Probably with a some effort I could create a narrative/mythology containing all that I see as being connected, but right now I am just living this in the moment because – as I said above, I can see the defective underneath and the most beautiful experiences hold beneath them the most potential to turn into something awful. So, I am trying to walk carefully, the ground is thin and shaky and there are monsters underneath.

This is much closer to how I ‘fantasize’ or experience another world. There’s a merging of reality and fantasy. Exactly! The reality becomes symbolic of something which is paralleled in some fantasy expression. I also connect it to dreams etc.  As for the monsters underneath, that’s exactly why I express myself in art – to release them. This happens in my dreams too. When I say “I let my demons dance with my angels” this is what I mean. I don’t want to suffocate my demons or they will get too hungry, too big.

Anyway, dreamworld can be confused with an imaginary place in the mind and I believe the imaginary place is rather an Ne thing and dreamworld rather an Ni thing.

That makes perfect sense to me :O what do you think, Alerith?

In dreamworld I don’t think what could be, going forward..I think ok, what happened today that matches this pattern that I assume is here ? In my mind it’s a sure thing something already happened (!) that is a piece of a puzzle that conveys a specific personal meaning. I find it thinking about the concrete moments and images I saw in the past. I don’t really “imagine” anything else but that there are connections between real objects and events.

Agree completely, I do this too. This is consistent with Auburn’s diagram, which I agree with.

  • This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
  • This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.

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